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Erik Scottberg:

He makes it clear that he’s talking about judging people who call themselves believers and not the world.

I totally agree. I think we as Christians need to look harder at ourselves rather than complaining about how sinful the world is. We need to get over it already. The world has been and always will be sinful. The real question is–why is it entering the lives of my brothers and sisters in Christ and myself? That’s when there’s a problem–and yes, that problem needs to be addressed in love, but directly, because of the possible consequences to the immoral Christian (they may be risking their soul), the church body (this will spiral out of control fast), and the world (who will continue to reject Christ because they too see the hypocrisy of “holy” Christians perfectly OK with blatantly disobeying God’s will).

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If the person refuses to receive instruction from the leadership, while we still value/love them as a person, our desire to remain in fellowship with them may need to be set aside for the sake of the rest of the church. Once someone feels it’s OK to do something clearly against God’s will (such as the sins mentioned in this chapter), pretty soon others feel freedom to indulge in their own lusts and depravities–especially when the church is permissive of its members blatantly disobeying God.

The reason I didn’t use Paul in this particular post (even though this chapter you and Erik referenced would be an obvious text on the matter) will be addressed in my next post.

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I think Drew really cut to the pivotal point here, even if he jumped ahead of you a few blogs or so!

My response to those who feel that Jesus died so that everyone will go to heaven, whether they are Christian or not, is that this seems to me to be a very risky belief. When people’s souls are at stake, wouldn’t we want to do everything we can to ensure they end up in heaven? Including evangelizing, telling people about the Gospel, etc? To just assume that they will all go to heaven anyway seems to me to be just a nice belief that helps everyone sleep better at night. If it ends up that way, great, but I don’t see any evidence of that in the Bible, and I’m not willing to risk anyone’s eternal soul on what humans think should happen!

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1) Paul specifically tells the church at Corinth to judge in 1 Corinthians 5. But he makes it clear that he’s talking about judging people who call themselves believers and not the world.

2) I agree with Drew about hypocrisy. Right after the “don’t judge” from Jesus comes this: “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

I don’t think many people consider this second phrase. To me it’s the qualification of the “don’t judge” statement. It’s as if Jesus is issuing more of a warning than a black and white rule about it–especially in light of the context, as you both have mentioned. (and if it is a command then we’ve got to ask why Paul teaches something different). Anyway, Jesus isn’t making a value statement on whether or not we should judge, but it’s a statement about how that judgment is made.

It’s late. I’m tired. I hope that makes sense….

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I was evidently following the wrong line of thinking. I’ll let you follow up on addressing that line of thinking, though I do have some thoughts on a good response.

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Drew:

The point about not judging (in Matthew 7 and in Romans 2) is not about saying that making judgments is wrong so much as that it is hypocritical and unhelpful when the person judging does the same things.

Great point. When we’re doing the very same wrong thing we judge others to be doing, it makes sense that the same judgment ought to fall on us.

Drew:

The point of proper judgment is to help someone become closer to God rather than improper judgment which simply asserts that I am better than you.

Wow. That’s exactly it. I could have eliminated many words from this blog if I’d only said it that way!!

Drew:

I would question how your accusers would respond to the question of what the point of the crucifixion was if salvation could be attained apart from Christ. Without that, there really is no such thing as Christianity.

I don’t consider them “my accusers,” and can only try to speak on their behalf, but based on my conversations, I feel pretty confident in saying that they believe that Jesus died for everyone–not just people who become Christian. (I don’t disagree with this part.) They would also say, if I’m not mistaken, that therefore Jesus died for a Buddhist, for example, who may be taught through his religion to forgive people. (I’m not sure if his religion teaches that, but it probably does–I dunno.) As a result, it is conceivable that he lives more like a Christian than myself. He may thus be living his life more in line with Christ’s teachings than I am, even though he has never heard about Christ, or doesn’t believe in Christ for any number of reasons. And since Jesus died for him too–if I get to heaven as a Christian, why shouldn’t he? He may not have put his faith in Christ to save him, but maybe he lived his life more in line with how Jesus says to treat each other than I did, and shouldn’t that count for something?

This line of thinking has some truth in it, but also contains serious misunderstandings, but I’ll leave that for one of my next blogs! Of course, if anyone else wants to jump in on this before then, go for it! I’d love to hear how you see it.

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The point about not judging (in Matthew 7 and in Romans 2) is not about saying that making judgments is wrong so much as that it is hypocritical and unhelpful when the person judging does the same things. I suspect that most of the people who like to quote Matthew 7:1 have never taken the time to read the passaage and see that there is a correct context for judgment provided in Matthew 7:5. The point of proper judgment is to help someone become closer to God rather than improper judgment which simply asserts that I am better than you.

Regarding the comments about love, do people not understand what love is? Loving someone does not somehow mean that I have to agree that they do not need Christ to attain salvation. The following passage (Romans 5:6-8) tells me that you are closer to the proper definition of love than the people who are disagreeing with you.

“You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Love is painful sacrifice rather than painless acquiescence.

Finally, in Galatians 2:21 Paul writes that if salvation could come by the law, then Christ died for nothing. Likewise, I would question how your accusers would respond to the question of what the point of the crucifixion was if salvation could be attained apart from Christ. Without that, there really is no such thing as Christianity.

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